The following is an excerpt taken from the book ‘The Pre-Trib Rapture: A Bucket Full of Holes!’ by Paul Benson. It is available for download at no charge in PDF, E-PUB, or Kindle format. This is a very thorough look at the various facets of the pre-trib theory, and proves conclusively it is not correct doctrine.
Who are God’s elect in Matthew 24?
And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened. Matthew 24:22
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in Heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of Heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of Heaven to the other. Matthew 24:30-31
If read in context and honest consideration the words of Christ in Matthew 24 present a very clear picture of the ‘catching away’ of the believers at the Second Coming of Christ after the great tribulation. In their efforts to obfuscate this truth and distract you from this assault on their doctrine there has been some wild notions, and even blatant lies, thrown at us from those espousing the pre-trib rapture theory. You will frequently hear nonsense like:
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Jesus was speaking here only to the Jews, and these words do not apply to us the Church.
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The ‘Elect’ spoken of here are Jews. not the Body of Christ.
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Some of the references to his Coming in this chapter refer to the Rapture and some to his Second Coming; and God has in this modern age given special revelation to some people to distinguish between the two; and without these enlightened ones guiding us we, the unenlightened laity, can’t get a proper understanding of the order of end-time events. We need them to teach us. (Big Smile!)
Lets take a look first at the notion that: Jesus was speaking only to the Jews in Matthew 24; and it’s not for us. I don’t know who dreamed this one up, but all it takes to debunk that falsehood is a little common sense. What made this teaching session of Christ any different from all his others? Of course he was addressing the Jews, he did so all the time. There was no gentile Church yet; and I doubt that too many of the Romans were interested.
He was addressing his apostles and disciples; the very foundation of his Church. The same group to which he gave the Great Commission; should we disregard those words also? Jesus was always teaching the Jews; it was to them he was sent. If you apply their criteria for disregarding this chapter to all his other teaching sessions what would we have left? The few times he addressed the heathen? Come on!
Jesus said we are to ‘keep his sayings’ (John 14). He didn’t say, “Keep my sayings unless I was speaking to the Jews.” Matthew 24 is sayings we are to keep. Mark ends his record of the Olivet discourse with Jesus saying, “what I say unto you I say unto all…” (Mark 13:37). Now how could that possibly be interpreted to mean, “Today’s sermon is for national Israel and no one else!”?
One of the keys we receive from the Word of God about discerning false teachers is that they will steal God’s Words away from his people and replace them with smooth words that cause you to err from the truth (Jeremiah 23, Ezekiel 13). Rapture theory teachers denying Matthew 24 is for us is truly a theft in progress.
Let’s look at the second part of the deceiving distraction they inject into Matthew 24. How many times have we heard a rapture teacher try to convince us that: “Matthew 24:30-31 is not the Resurrection of the Just because it says ‘the elect’ and we all know that the Jews are Gods elect; so that cannot be our Resurrection, right?” WRONG! To say we as Christians are NOT the elect of God is another falsehood they push to keep these Scriptures from exposing their error. To ‘prove’ their point they will quote a couple of Old Testament verses that call Israel Gods ‘elect’, (and they were at that time!) and then some will go to Romans and twist a passage to try to garner a New Testament confirmation. But it’s all a lie.
If we are going to get to the truth here first we should establish one thing. Israel was (and is called to return to being) Gods elect; chosen and favored. But the Bible teaches us they (unbelieving Israel rejecting Christ) were cut off; and the believing Gentiles (Christians) were grafted in to join all the believing Jews (Christians) as one elect body in a New Covenant with God. And when the day comes where a Jewish remnant turns their hearts to embrace faith in Jesus they (as Christians) will be grafted back in. God does not have two elections, or two Brides as some mistakenly say; just one elect body in Christ sanctified by his Sacrifice. We have not ‘replaced’ God’s elect, but joined the believing Jews IN their election. If these things are not clear to you please prayerfully study Romans 11. It’s stated pretty plainly. And those of you rapture theorists who try to twist verse 28 and say, “See they are Gods elect it says so right here.” I suggest you back up to verse 7 and read it all in context for a change. This chapter in context plainly states unbelieving Israel is not in a state of election, but definitely called to repent and regain that status.
Undeniable Witness From God’s Word
Something that I did to clear this matter up for me was to do a search and study on the usage of the word ‘elect’ in the New Testament. It left no doubt in my mind those in Christ are the elect of God; and Matthew 24:30-31 is our resurrection/catching away!
The word elect is used 16 times in the N.T. (KJV). The underlying Greek word eklektos is used 23 times and is always translated ‘elect’ or ‘chosen’. It is also enlightening to search the word ‘election’. A thorough look at all these passages shows NOT ONE reference to national Israel NOW being the elect. The fact the believer is now the elect of God is undeniable as you look through the verses in question. Examine each verse and ask yourself if this is a reference to national Israel or those who are in Christ. Here are a few:
Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering; Colossians 3:12
Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: … 1 Peter 1:2
The children of thy elect sister greet thee… 2 John 1:13
Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God’s elect? It is God that justifieth. Romans 8:33
Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God’s elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness; Titus 1:1
Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. Romans 11:5
Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: 2 Peter 1:10
The Word of God clearly teaches we the followers of Christ are ‘the elect’ of God; and therefor we are the ones being gathered unto Christ in Matthew 30:31. If you are still up in the air on this I suggest you take time to study this out completely; reading each verse that uses these terms in its context. If you can find one verse teaching that national Israel is at this time the elect of God and those in Christ are not please let me know, will ya?
Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles. Isaiah 42:1
If you want to look at this spiritually we are God’s elect because we are in Christ, and Christ is God’s elect. Christ is God’s rlect, and therefor his Body is also God’s elect! It’s all about our identification with him. He in us, us in him; making us the elect.
The third misguided statement from our list above is so hyper-spiritual it is not even worthy of comment other than to say it seems like this ‘rapture’ stuff is getting weirder and weirder as it progresses. I think old number three just kind of rebukes itself. We’ll leave it at that.
To sum it up, saying the Body of Christ is not God’s ‘elect’ is quite clearly a lie against the multiple witnesses we have in the N.T. writings declaring that we most certainly are. And to say we should not consider the words of the Olivet discourse as written to us carries no clout whatsoever. Reading Matthew chapter 24 (and the corresponding accounts in Mark and Luke) with the understanding that the body of Christ is God’s elect leaves no doubt our Resurrection and catching away to meet Christ takes place at his Second Coming after the tribulation. The claim of an earlier event is a man-made ear-tickling fable.
But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, 25 And the stars of Heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in Heaven shall be shaken. 26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of Heaven. Mark 13:24-27
The Accountability Factor
Anyone who says this passage from Mark isn’t describing our gathering together unto Christ is a false teacher, and is in danger of standing before God as one. Truth sanctifies, but error defiles. If you have embraced the error of the pre-trib rapture theory you have allowed yourself to be defiled by a lie; and the Holy Spirit is speaking to you now. The Lord desires to cleanse you from that error, and is calling you to repent, and turn from it today. Please don’t harden your heart against his voice. This rapture hoax has brought great schism into the Bride of Christ, and is one of the spots, wrinkles, and blemishes the events of the near future are going to remove from her garment. Why not remove that blemish now so God is not forced to?
For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. 32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world. 1Corinthians 11:31-32
Blessings upon all who love our Christ;
Paul Benson
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While there be some that would state that it is the Jews that are the “ELECT” in the Matt 24, and ONLY the Jews, the fact is, that both the Jews, AND church age saints are the “elect”. God deals with Israel (His elect) in a totally different manner He is dealing with the “elect” in this dispensation.
The tribulation is clearly the Time of Jacob’s Trouble, and not geared for His church. The “elect” that are raptured will be present in heaven for the Judgment Seat, and also for the Marriage Supper while God deals with the “elect” group on earth during the tribulation.
So yes, Israel is the elect of God, and Matt 24 and its context is speaking of them here. Quite clear.
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Hi Kevin;
It’s only ‘clear’ if you under the delusional thinking brought about by being indoctrinated with the false notions of Dispensational Theology. That theological system (a creation of man and NOT from God) forces you to turn a blind eye to the truths we receive from passages like Romans 11 that ‘clearly’ teach that National Israel (except for the Jews who turn to faith in Jesus) was CUT OFF from her status as God’s elect by her unbelief. The call to ‘return’ to that position of election is clearly expressed BUT… Whenever a Jew does return to God through faith in Christ they become members of the Body of Christ and thus are once again God’s elect ;and subsequently they join in the Church that is referred to as the elect in Matthew 24.
I suggest you read my articles on Dispensational error and also the ones on ‘Election’. You have been indoctrinated into an erroneous theology that contradicts the Scriptures on MANY fronts!
https://pbenson.me/2016/10/31/the-elect-of-god-today/
https://pbenson.me/category/rebuking-disepnsationalism/
In Christ Jesus;
Paul Benson
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In Matthew 24:31 he says “…and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.” Wouldn’t he say earth if he was gathering us from the earth?
Also, in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, I’ve heard the wicked one can not be revealed until the church is removed.
I’m just doing some research and wanted to hear your thoughts. Not saying you or are right or wrong. Either way I believe we should just all be ready.
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Hi Eden;
Thanks for the comment. Several points here to consider.
First, the term ‘the four winds’ has been used historically to refer to ‘the north,south, east, and west’; and also, in the Scriptures the term heaven is used to refer to the expanse above us: including the sky. No surprise that pre-tribbers always quote Matthew here and not Mark as you will see in my next point.
Secondly, If you read Mark’s account he actually DOES use the words ‘the Earth’.
Mar 13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
When the Resurrection of the Just occurs believers will be gathered from both the earth (the living) and from Heaven (the departed).
And thirdly, if you read 2Thess. 2:1-3 carefully you will see that it actually does NOT say the Antichrist cannot be revealed until the Church leaves. That is a deception that has been introduced into the understanding of many people by people teaching things they ought not! It truly says just the opposite:
2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
Paul taught that the coming of our Lord and our gathering together unto him SHALL NOT COME until the falling away and the man of sin is revealed. Antichrist must be revealed BEFORE Christ is revealed. There is no other way to properly comprehend this passage. But the pre-trib crowd goes to ridiculous lengths to get around what is plainly stated there. Read the Bible, and esteem what you read up and above the teachings of man and you will know the truth.
Blessings;
Paul Benson
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If the believers are taken to heaven at the end of the tribulation, then who will bear children in the millennial kingdom? You need mortal people to have children
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Hi Bryan;
Read Zech. 12 and realize that not all the unsaved will be destroyed by the wrath of God that will sweep this planet at the Return of Jesus.
Zec 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
There will be unsaved mortals alive to repopulate the Earth. Thanks for the comment.
Blessings;
Paul Benson
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I don’t agree with your statement that just because he was talking to the Jews at that moment that he was only referring to the Jews in the end time. when the Ten Commandments were given to Moses on Stone, Moses was working with the nation of Israel. Does that mean the Ten Commandments don’t apply to the rest of us? It is clear in the Old Testament that Israel broke the Covenant with our God. A covenant is only binding as both parties of that Covenant abide by the terms of that Covenant. The Jewish people have no special place in the end times other than believing in Jesus the Christ and becoming a part of the body of Christ. the old Covenant was based on our(human beings) promises to God. the New Covenant is based on God’s promises to ALL of us.
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Hi Dave;
It is apparent from your comment that you did not actually read the article; as the point of the article was to refute the notion that ‘Jesus was speaking only to the Jews who would be around in the end-times’. I was NOT endorsing that notion at all.
I was exposing the falsehood of teaching that national Israel is the ‘elect’ of the end-times. Israel was (except for a believing remnant) cut-off from her election! The ONLY way to be a part of God’s elect (since the Cross of Christ) is by being reborn spiritually through faith in Christ’s redemptive work.
May I suggest you go back and read the article in a more careful manner. I think you would find we are on the same page as to just who is the ‘elect of God’ in the last-days prophecies.
Blessings;
Paul Benson
P.S. You did make a very good point about the applicability of the Ten Commandments to those other than just the Jews who heard them be given!
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Why there is a tribulation
The reason why there is tribulation is wrong is:
God won’t let his people enter into the time of wrath. The wrath is for the Jews and anyone who does not repent! Romans 5:8-11, 1 Thessalonians 5:9-11 1Thessalonians 1:10,
EDITED FOR LENGTH AND MUCH FALSE DOCTRINE BY P.B.
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Hello Shalom;
You are correct that the righteous redeemed believer will NEVER face the Wrath of God. The problem you have is that you have been incorrectly taught that the Wrath of God is poured out in the final years BEFORE the Return of Christ to this planet.
The entire pre-trib rapture doctrine rests upon the false assumption that the time of great tribulation Jesus spoke of is the wrath of God; BUT… The Bible teaches no such thing! I have put together a video teaching series that clearly shows the events that transpire during the tribulation are NOT the wrath of God but are God calling the whole world (including his people) to repent and prepare for Christ’s Coming.. Here is a link to the 3rd video that specifically deals with the timing of the out-pouring of the Wrath of God in the last days:
Thanks for the visit to the site and taking time to comment;
Paul Benson
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The simple fact is, if you take the 70th week prophecy given to Daniel out of the end times misenterpretations, there is not a 7 years, and therefore no pre, mid or post tribulation just the second coming and resurection. All three, pre, mid and post is tied to the false teaching of the 7 year last week. There is not a rapture, there is the resurrection.
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Ronald;
The fact is that the Bible DOES teach the catching-away of the Church to meet Jesus in the air AT THE SECOND COMING! This is not predicated upon a notion of a ‘seven year tribulation’ (a concept I neither believe nor teach); it is just the plain and simple truth presented to us by the Scripture.
The ‘great tribulation’ Jesus spoke of is the period of persecution and hardships the Church will face under the reign of Antichrist. It was not a reference to a chronological timetable or a ‘dispensation’.
Your statement that ‘there is no rapture’ is a bit troubling. While I personally do not like the term ‘rapture’ because of all the peripheral falsehoods that are normally presented in conjunction with that term (ie. instantaneous disappearance of the Church from Earth, transport off to Heaven, marriage supper in Heaven etc.etc. etc.) it is a term commonly understood to speak of being caught up to meet Jesus at his Coming.
The Bible clearly states this event WILL happen. The question is not whether there will be a catching-away to meet Jesus but just WHEN does this event transpire. We are truly given the answer to this question in quite a number of places in the Scriptures.
The problem is that folks who have been indoctrinated into a false eschatology are programmed to ignore or misinterpret these many passages. Such as this one:
Mar 13:24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
Mar 13:25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
Mar 13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
Mar 13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
Jesus will return to Earth AFTER the time of great persecution of his people (and the tumultuous and catastrophic events of those days) and we will be ‘raptured’ (caught-up to meet him) at that time. There is no trip off to Heaven at that time. Jesus is here to begin his Millennial Reign.
Blessings;
Paul Benson
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Paul
I am sorry my comment was taken the wrong way. The way I have seen and heard the rapture theory taught, we will meet Jesus in the air and we are carried to heaven and more. The purpose is to preserve the Church from the time of the tribulation, or the great tribulation and He will come back visibly with His saints returning with Him from heaven.
It is also tied to putting the 70th week of Daniel 9 at the end of time therefore, comes Pre-Trib., Mid-Trib., or Post-Trib. The false teaching of the 7 years and the rapture are taught as one theory or doctrine. When I hear the word rapture, I feel this teaching immediately arises in the minds of so many people and it is deceiving and false. The word rapture has created preconceived ideas in so many, that it blocks the truth and most cannot see around it.
I believe in the catching-away as you do, when Jesus returns, he will send the angels to gather the elect and the dead will rise first and we will meet Him in the air and come down with Him. This false teaching has so many looking for something that is not coming and is not going to be prepared for what is coming, that is why I said what I did my main reference was pre, mid and post with the 7 years are from Satan, not scripture. I hope this clarifies things.
God bless! Ronald
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Thank you,
It’s become so clear, I by reading unto it, no more confusion that we are the elect because we are in Christ Jesus.
May God bless you.
Mebs.
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Why is it that the post-tribulation people always condemn the pre-tribulation people? The pre-trib people never condemn the post-trib people. The pre-trib people don’t consider this issue to be damnable heresy. I can’t help but question anyone who condemns another for something other than unbelief in Jesus Christ. The post-trib people are always those who appear self righteous and judgemental and like they are the only ones who have the whole truth. ” Whoever thinks he knows anything knows nothing as he ought.” The pre-trib people seem to understand that! What does it matter if your trust and hope is in Jesus? The post-trib people seem to put more trust in their perceived knowledge than Jesus. “The Jews seek a sign, and the Greeks seek wisdom, but we seek Christ Himself who was crucified.” Jesus said, “This is eternal life; knowing the one true God and Jesus Christ whom He has sent.” Revelation says, “The testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.” I could be wrong, just like any other believer, but it appears that the post-trib people are practicing Satan’s work by being “accusers of the brethren.” They think they have ALL truth and everyone else is damned. Jesus is THE Truth! I know Jesus, and everything else is “worthless compared to knowing Christ Jesus,” as the apostle Paul said. Either post- or pre-, we are still “those who love His appearing.” Or, do you?
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Hi Jen jen;
Like so many others you focus upon ‘shooting the messenger’ instead addressing his message. The important thing should not be who is squabbling the most over the issue and exhibiting bad behavior; but who is in line with the truth of God’s Word?
I have written many articles and produced a few videos that show clearly the MANY ways the pre-trib theory is not only not taught in the Bible but is actually contrary to what the Bible DOES teach. I encourage you to prayerfully give my work an honest examination and ask the Father to show you the truth of the matter. You have (as I once was) been taught a theology of man that did NOT originate with the teachings of Christ and his Apostles and is NOT presented to us in the Word of God. There is not ONE verse in the Bible that teaches the Church will leave Earth seven years before the Second Coming.
In Christ Jesus;
Paul Benson
P.S. If you think pre-tribbers never condemn those who reject that bogus theology then you a quite mistaken! I have had MANY people call me a servant of Satan and condemn me to Hell for rejecting Darby’s delusions and teaching against the idea of a rapture that removes the Church before Antichrist’s ‘war on the Saints’. But that does not make them right or wrong.
The standard of truth is the Word of God; and the pre-trib teaching is at odds with the Word of God on SO MANY fronts it amazes me that people choose to remain blind to all those conflicts it creates. You have to willingly ignore these many problems with the pre-trib teaching in order to hold to it – but so many still do. That, by the very definition of the word, is DELUSIONAL!
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We are saved through much tribulation, not from. Those who believe that they will be safe from the Great Tribulation will not be ready because they believed a great big lie.
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Hi Dave;
AMEN! The Church will go through the time of tribulation, face Antichrist and the mark of the beast, and then be resurrected and caught up to meet Jesus at his Second Coming when he comes bringing the Wrath of God upon the Wicked. There will be NO prior rescue to spare God’s elect from the time of great persecution that is ahead.
Thanks for the comment;
Paul Benson
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One could open an art gallery with all the word paintings of end times. Most would be considered Picasso’s or Salvador Dalí’s in understanding. Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21 cover the Olivet Discourse. We think of all the twelve Apostles Jesus said this to, but it was only Peter, James, John and Andrew, Mark 13: 3. Jesus had just told them not a stone would be left on another of the temple buildings they were just admiring. This was the second time Jesus said this and the first time he cried, Luke 19:41-44.
I believe this covers two events 65AD –70AD and His second coming, because I also do not believe in the pre-tribulation rapture. There question to Jesus was when would these things be and what sign will there be when it would come to pass/when it would be fulfilled. In Matthew it is written the sign of his coming, and of the end of the world (age). The Apostles believed that Jesus was going to set up the kingdom then. All through the gospels their minds were block to Him being killed on the cross, even after His resurrection they did not believe He had risen from the grave.
So, the question of his coming and the end of the world had to apply to the end of the temple. This must be a twofold prophecy for those to get out of Jerusalem and for those at his second coming. Much of the discourse was preparing the Apostles for what they were going to face from the Sadducees and Pharisees for their ministry was still to the lost sheep of Israel. “24:9Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name’s sake”. We see that is what they did, we also see there were many false prophets and false Messiahs in those days.
Matthew 23:31-39 that some try to set dates when Israel became a nation putting the second coming in that generation, but it actually applies to part of this discourse. The wording, “except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved”, clearly is saying all flesh on earth would be destroyed (the great tribulation for those that are still here) before his coming if it was not shortened.
The elect; I agree are; “they that are Christ’s at his coming”.
I look forward to reading ‘The Pre-Trib Rapture: A Bucket Full of Holes!’
Thanks Paul and may God continue His Blessings!!!
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The elect can be the pretrib raptured elect in heaven AND the saved people on earth at the tribulation. I still stand on pretrib 🙂
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Hi Amethist;
I find it strange the way those under the pre-trib delusion ignore or attempt to explain away the many conundrums that theory causes. For example: According to your take on the matter: part of the Body of Christ (AKA the Elect) gets raptured away to Heaven prior to the tribulation to be a part of the marriage and supper; BUT…. another segment of God’s elect are left on earth to miss out on their marriage.
THINK ABOUT IT. If the resurrection has already happened where do the supposed ‘tribulation saints’ get their glorified bodies? Or do they spend eternity as disembodied spirits? And don’t try that multiple resurrection of the Righteous nonsense because Paul plainly taught in 1Cor. 15 that ALL who are in Christ are raised at the SAME TIME: At Christ’s Coming!
1Co 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
1Co 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming.
You have your bogus promise of exemption from tribulation applying to part of God’s elect but not another. But I am sure you have been taught to ignore 1Cor. 15:20-23 just like you have been conditioned to ignore 2Thess 2:1-3 which clearly states the catching away of the Church to meet Jesus does not happen until AFTER the Man of Sin is revealed. I could go on all night about the contradictions to Scripture the pre-rib hoax presents, but those words would most likely be tuned out by the delusive nature of the false doctrine you have embraced.
I hope you would take time to prayerfully consider my other articles and the new series of videos I am working on. You have been taught a fable and convinced it is the truth.
In Chirst Jesus;
Paul Benson
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Me too
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Are we in Christ because we were elected to be by God or are we elected because we are Christ?
Thanks,
Ed
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Hi Ed;
I think we need to be very careful in our efforts to (with a finite mind) fully define the nature, character, and even the callings of our God. I have expressed those concerns in the following article:
The Dangers Of Defining God.
https://pbenson.me/2016/06/23/the-dangers-of-defining-god/
I would be interested in your response.
Blessings;
Paul Benson
P.S. If you were fishing for clues as to if I am a Calvinist or not the answer is an emphatic NO!
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So the Lord is going to save the church in the wrath of God instead of out and how he has done this in the Old Testament ? The angels told lot there was nothing they could do until lot left and went to a certain place . Meaning he didn’t go into his home and everything else was destroyed and burned around him . Noah went into a ship and God closed the door and they sat there for seven days , and were lifted up above God‘s wrath .It seems that God is taking people out before destruction comes .
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Hi James;
Let me point out a couple of things regarding your comment. First please note that in none of the examples we see in Scripture of God relocating or harboring his people to protect them from an outpouring of his anger does he remove them from the planet to ‘keep’ them. (And additionally there is nowhere the Church is described as being taken to Heaven in a ‘Rapture’.)
Secondly, you make the presumption that the time of tribulation is the ‘Wrath of God’. This is an unbiblical notion. The wrath of God is administered (overseen) by Christ at the Second Coming. Nowhere does the Bible describe the events of the time of tribulation as the wrath of God; it is a world-wide ‘last call’ for mankind to repent. Please consider this article:
Is The Tribulation The Wrath of God?Blessings to you;
Paul Benson
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Sir,
I have doubted pre-trib for a while now, but I need clarity on some things. In Revelation 7:4-8 the 144,000 Jews are sealed before the angels can harm the earth. Immediately after in 7:9 John sees a great multitude standing before the throne..all before woes are inflicted. Chapter 9 says all those who dont have the seal will be tormented by the locusts from the bottomless pit..so does that include Christians? A lot of plagues and woes occur BEFORE the vials of judgement, and this is all BEFORE the two witnesses show up. I know it isn’t completely chronological but some of it is, right? All the events in Revelation seem humanity dooming, yet there are still plenty of people left over after each event to endure the next one, which makes me wonder if ANY of the events will actually seem obvious to us. Has the Revelation 12 sign actually happened?…does that mean its all celestial until the mark of the beast? Jesus said to look up for our redemption when the man of sin is standing in the holy place, that event is only in the middle of the book of Revelation, with the catching up on n the clouds being way at the end of it all..one last thing, and its a kicker for me. When Jesus comes down in the clouds in Revelation 19, it is AFTER the marriage supper, and he doesn’t come alone, he comes with his armies clothed in fine linen, white and clean as the saints are described at the marriage supper. Are these ONLY those who were persecuted for their faith during the tribulation?
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Hello SS;
I think if we approach end-time prophesy primarily through a focus only upon the allagories of the Book of Revelation it’s easy to get confused or side-tracked. We should base our beliefs on end-time doctrine only upon what is clearly andplainly stated in the teachings of Chirst and his apostles and then carefully (and prayerfully) add into the mix the allagories given elsewhere.
As for the armies in white coming out of Heaven with our Christ please consider this article:
https://pbenson.me/2016/05/20/who-are-the-armies-of-heaven/
Blessings;
Paul Benson
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I guess we have to ignore that pesky little book of 1 Peter, where he calls all Christians “THE ELECT”
1 ¶ Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
3 ¶ Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
Good try, but, a lot of mental scriptural gymnastics, I think.
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Hi Michael;
Yes, I agree. The only place int eh entire New Testament that election speaks of Israel is in Romans 11 where the context clearly teaches Israel (except for a believing remnant) was CUT OFF from their election!
Blessings;
Paul Benson
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They also use the theory that the church isn’t mentioned after Rev. 4 till Rev. 20… So I respond ” because it’s not about the church ( Bride, Body) it’s about the evil taking place and how the Father revealed it before it ever happened, to show Gods authority”
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Hi Edwin;
I made comment on this very issue in the article that will post tomorrow.
Paul Benson
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Thanks Paul, I’m preparing a talk titled “the day of The Lord”.
The sequence for when the rapture takes place is essential for us to get a desperation for Jesus now. We must be overcomers and we must be able to stand before the Son of man.
Thanks for explaining, His elect, I like the way you talk.
Unfortunately many people have been deceived and if no one stands up and preaches the true gospel many in the West will have a Matthew 13:21 experience and be offended when tribulation or persecution arise.
Thank you for your encouragement and truth.
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Hi Gary;
The misunderstandings over election presented by dispensational theology lead to serious error in beliefs about how God deals with us; and about what lays ahead for the Church. I am glad you found the article helpful.
Blessings to you;
Paul Benson
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I’ve read a lot of articles concerning Pre-Trib and the ‘no mention of the Church beyond the 19 times in the early chapters of Revelations’. Maybe it was you that mentioned the “Saints” in later chapters? I would think that would take in all believers: the Church or believing Jews?
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Hi Charles;
Here is an article where I show the Church absolutely is on Earth after Revelation 4:1
https://pbenson.me/2017/08/15/bible-proof-the-church-is-not-missing-from-earth-after-revelation-41/
Blessings;
Paul Benson
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I agree. My friends all use the theory that since the church is no longer mentioned after the first three chapters of revelation..then it must be gone already! Really?? To think that a wise person would just make an assumption that important. Jesus was just giving a history of different church era’s and warning us to listen to him before it’s too late. Thanks for being honest and sharing what scripture says. This is how Jesus overcame temptation…Gods word. It’s too bad that now Satan is twisting that..ie NIV…NLT. etc. All changing and diluting God’s true word.
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Hi Holly;
You are so right!
There are actually many examples that show the Church on Earth after Rev. 3 if you have eyes to see. That notion is provably false.
Thanks for the visit.
Blessings;
Paul Benson
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Where does it say that Jesus overcame by God’s word? I know the Bible says that He learned obedience through suffering, but I don’t know where it says that.
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Hi Jen jen;
2Thessalonians 2:8 and Revelation 19:11-21 are just two examples among many that show the power of the Word of God utilized by our Lord Jesus to overcome Satan. And what about when Jesus said “Get behind me Satan”; was not that the Word of God causing Jesus to ‘overcome’? Jesus Christ IS GOD! And any words that proceed out of his mouth are the very Word of God.
I find your comment a bit troubling. Surely you are not doubting the deity of our Christ are you? I hope not; for that is a heretical teaching to deny his deity!
In Jesus Christ;
Paul Benson
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Amen! Well said. Very clear. Thank you.
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Timing, timing, timing. I agree with you.
https://whitestone2020.com/2020/07/13/these-last-days-part-1/
https://whitestone2020.com/2020/07/13/these-last-days-part-3/
Blessings!
Mike Young
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